Very salient discussion around the national myth, and China is a fascinating case study in it. I'm posting this having not listened to the whole thing, so apologies if I'm re-treading ground here, but felt the need to strike while the iron is hot.
I wonder if part of the funk we seem to be finding ourselves in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK, and in Western Europe, is a fading of the national myth, and indeed a perversion of it to the point where it no longer reveals something about us. Here in New Zealand, obviously Maori have a very strong and powerful mythos, that seems to have an organic renewal to it, which guides and energizes cohesive movements. But on the macro scale, the greater 'kiwi'ness' is in decline. For a very long time as a nation here we have traded on the sacramental order (as Baudrillard would put it), the exploits of the heros of the world wars. But that star is fading in power fast. In part because of the shame and self loathing that is to be found in a lot of Allied nations. In part perhaps because what that revealed about our national character is no longer clear. The simulacrum of the Kiwi hero for example no longer reveals a greater reality about who we are and what we represent. To say nothing of the fact that in polite society the kiwi hero often gets shunted off the stage altogether.
It's one thing the Americans have not suffered from nearly so much. Divorced of all the economic factors and stressors that enabled Trump's come back, I have to think a part of his endurance as a politician in spite of January 6th is because Americans want to be proud of their nation, and he tapped into that and spoke to it better than Harris could. It seems clear that there is still a very strong ingrained national identity in the U.S. Likewise, it's something I see Pierre Poilievre tapping into in a similar manner, trying to rejuvenate the national myth of Canada. Perhaps in part the American election was a rejection of the deconstructionist, and ultimately negative view of the nation state that has grown in popularity among leftist movements, and particularly among the intelligentsia. If that has ground truth, I would expect to see Poilievre outperform the polls in Canada come election time.
As for New Zealand and Australia, our course is still uncertain. Here at home, it is really only NZ First and Te Pati Maori that truly seem to grasp the importance of myth. Seymour to an extent I guess with his conjuring of European enlightenment era classical liberal values, though I suspect he is a mile wide and puddle deep on the matter. Australia seems to altogether lack anyone of substantive vision, and it's been that way for a long time. The UK strikes me as the clearest example of this. Brexit was carried in part as a referendum on the basis of restoring the national myth, though it's clear there was no clear idea of how to implement it effectively and nobody of any great competency or vision. They've been rudderless ever since.
Another great comment from you and thanks for listening.
You are right about the fading myth. In my view, Liberalism and its 'freedom from' ethos has finally 'released' us from all our pre-liberal myths (or non-liberal), the very stories and ideals that bound us together as a people. New Zealand is a curious case. The one that has been most strongly subverted, in my view, is 'number-8 wire' or kiwi ingenuity/DIY. We have gone from being a peoples needing to rely on ourselves and each other in a harsh place in the middle of nowhere, to a group mild testosterone youths and over-controlling mothers, most epitomised by Jacinda Arden's reign.
What is fascinating about David Seymour and ACT, and the rejecting of him by the mainstream media and anybody 'too polite', is evidence that Liberalism and the Enlightenment ethos is unpopular from the Left. He is most liberal-democratic leader we have. To me, all those self-proclaimed 'liberals' trying to argue away the Treaty Principle Bill, have exposed themselves as far closer the 'diversity, equity, and inclusion' inverted hierarchy of wokeism, than anything mirroring true equality under the law. For my own views, my criticism would come from the right - but that's for another day. In saying all that, there is the odd freelance reporter who are criticising Te Pati Maori and their idiotic actions - though the sway of the mainstream media has more sway here in NZ than say the US.
One reason why the NZ, Canada, and Australia, are deeper in the mire when compared to the US, is clearly that we are apart of commonwealth. We were always loyal districts to the crown, immediately had her back in any wars they fought. We follow the UK like the little betas we were, let's be honest. America rules they world, they follow no one. I had a recent discussion with my parents the other day, saying while it is great what is happening the United States with the dewokification and minimising of the corrupt bureaucratic state, NZ is not going to change if the UK (and other countries in Europe) do not follow the US's lead. There is a lot of evidence to suggest they eventually will, but still, I am sceptical.
Thanks for having me on! Really enjoyed this podcast, it'd be great to come back on the show down the road!
No worries! Yeah me too, really enjoyed discussing these topics. For sure!
Looking forward to listening to this one today, that's for sure (-b^-^)-b
Merci!
Very salient discussion around the national myth, and China is a fascinating case study in it. I'm posting this having not listened to the whole thing, so apologies if I'm re-treading ground here, but felt the need to strike while the iron is hot.
I wonder if part of the funk we seem to be finding ourselves in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK, and in Western Europe, is a fading of the national myth, and indeed a perversion of it to the point where it no longer reveals something about us. Here in New Zealand, obviously Maori have a very strong and powerful mythos, that seems to have an organic renewal to it, which guides and energizes cohesive movements. But on the macro scale, the greater 'kiwi'ness' is in decline. For a very long time as a nation here we have traded on the sacramental order (as Baudrillard would put it), the exploits of the heros of the world wars. But that star is fading in power fast. In part because of the shame and self loathing that is to be found in a lot of Allied nations. In part perhaps because what that revealed about our national character is no longer clear. The simulacrum of the Kiwi hero for example no longer reveals a greater reality about who we are and what we represent. To say nothing of the fact that in polite society the kiwi hero often gets shunted off the stage altogether.
It's one thing the Americans have not suffered from nearly so much. Divorced of all the economic factors and stressors that enabled Trump's come back, I have to think a part of his endurance as a politician in spite of January 6th is because Americans want to be proud of their nation, and he tapped into that and spoke to it better than Harris could. It seems clear that there is still a very strong ingrained national identity in the U.S. Likewise, it's something I see Pierre Poilievre tapping into in a similar manner, trying to rejuvenate the national myth of Canada. Perhaps in part the American election was a rejection of the deconstructionist, and ultimately negative view of the nation state that has grown in popularity among leftist movements, and particularly among the intelligentsia. If that has ground truth, I would expect to see Poilievre outperform the polls in Canada come election time.
As for New Zealand and Australia, our course is still uncertain. Here at home, it is really only NZ First and Te Pati Maori that truly seem to grasp the importance of myth. Seymour to an extent I guess with his conjuring of European enlightenment era classical liberal values, though I suspect he is a mile wide and puddle deep on the matter. Australia seems to altogether lack anyone of substantive vision, and it's been that way for a long time. The UK strikes me as the clearest example of this. Brexit was carried in part as a referendum on the basis of restoring the national myth, though it's clear there was no clear idea of how to implement it effectively and nobody of any great competency or vision. They've been rudderless ever since.
Another great comment from you and thanks for listening.
You are right about the fading myth. In my view, Liberalism and its 'freedom from' ethos has finally 'released' us from all our pre-liberal myths (or non-liberal), the very stories and ideals that bound us together as a people. New Zealand is a curious case. The one that has been most strongly subverted, in my view, is 'number-8 wire' or kiwi ingenuity/DIY. We have gone from being a peoples needing to rely on ourselves and each other in a harsh place in the middle of nowhere, to a group mild testosterone youths and over-controlling mothers, most epitomised by Jacinda Arden's reign.
What is fascinating about David Seymour and ACT, and the rejecting of him by the mainstream media and anybody 'too polite', is evidence that Liberalism and the Enlightenment ethos is unpopular from the Left. He is most liberal-democratic leader we have. To me, all those self-proclaimed 'liberals' trying to argue away the Treaty Principle Bill, have exposed themselves as far closer the 'diversity, equity, and inclusion' inverted hierarchy of wokeism, than anything mirroring true equality under the law. For my own views, my criticism would come from the right - but that's for another day. In saying all that, there is the odd freelance reporter who are criticising Te Pati Maori and their idiotic actions - though the sway of the mainstream media has more sway here in NZ than say the US.
One reason why the NZ, Canada, and Australia, are deeper in the mire when compared to the US, is clearly that we are apart of commonwealth. We were always loyal districts to the crown, immediately had her back in any wars they fought. We follow the UK like the little betas we were, let's be honest. America rules they world, they follow no one. I had a recent discussion with my parents the other day, saying while it is great what is happening the United States with the dewokification and minimising of the corrupt bureaucratic state, NZ is not going to change if the UK (and other countries in Europe) do not follow the US's lead. There is a lot of evidence to suggest they eventually will, but still, I am sceptical.